Atheist Video Rebuttal Comment
Zachary Kroger (zakiechan) has created a new Atheist video. Check it out below. (Thanks to YouTube)
Another YouTube user (vulkanom) has created a video in response to Zak's Atheist Video. See response video here
This is my response to the video by vulkanom, left as a comment on the video's youtube page:
After writing this responce, I started to read the comments left behind for vulkanom. They are hallarious! I suggest you read them as well.
I patiently waited through the entire presentation to see what you would say about Carl Sagan's Words:
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -Carl Sagan
You didn't say anything about the above quote, you decided to comment on another quote from Carl Sagan:
"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proves." -Carl Sagan
Your response: "Show me your proves!"
Ok...
First of all, you are the one making extraordinary claims. God, heaven, hell and all the other silly things you want to believe in is extraordinary. Scientists including Carl Sagan aren't making extraordinary claims, they only make claims based on what they observe and test through the scientific method. There is nothing observable or testable about a God.
To answer your question regarding proves:
We as a species, the human race, have expanded our knowledge and experience greatly in the general study that we call science. With the help of our recent technological revolution, computers and the Internet, we are making incredible scientific finds (through proof and experimentation).
Little can be said about a God because there is no proof and there is no experiment that can be done to test its existence.
No where in all this research have scientists come remotely close to finding some testable proof that an omnipotent being such as the god you claim to exist.
That's why you call it faith, and faith is belief without logical proof. Wherever you go, whatever you do, you're belief will always be only what you think and nothing else since there is nothing you can do to prove it.
This site isn't mine, but something you should consider looking into, its very informative. I'd like to see you create a video on some of the long premises spoken about in this site:http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Another point of interest is a short video spoken by Sam Harris an outspoken freethinker. Sam Harris at Idea City '05 (YouTube Video)
Leandro
Freethinker,
Fort Lauderdale, FL
This responce blogged at: http://www.freethoughtnews.com/blog/2006/09/atheist-video-rebuttal-comment.html
14 Comments:
Faith ...faith ... faith ..... until you grasp the reality of faith you will chase your tail and remain in a spin Lman ---
In a modern scientific world medicine has excelled to degrees of achievement that were a mere 60 years ago, prior to the discovery of antibiotics, unheard of.
In the course of this scientic and clinical advancement the most strict and controlled testing is done in the testing and release of new medications.
One such technique is the use of a Placebo. I have mentioned this to you before and to date you have totally avoided dealing with it.
Strangely placebo subjects ( test subjects who are given sugar pills but believeing them to be the new super wonder drug) they show a clinical scientific response and cure --- from a lump of sugar --- thats the stuff in your sugar bowl, the thing they make jelly babies from, the sprinkles on your donuts --- plain ordinary everyday sugar ---
So whast happening here ? Howcome people taking sugar pills are getting cured( between 25% to 30% of placebo subjects have shown this response ).
I think its a matter of Faith. The true reality of faith. In the placebo the subject has placed their Faith in Modern medicine, Placebo is a real demonstration of Faith. It is a moment when ones belief actualises reality. That is faith. Not a misguided hope or any other definsiiton inspired by your Cult Leader mr harris.
So heres my challenge, inspired by Carl - explain to me how and why placebos work. I ask that as a double question because you will no doubt offer an answer which will tell me what is happening at a superficial level but will fail to explain the physiological process thats taking place.
SO -- the last time i ventured into your blog site i asked u to explain the PLACEBO effect --- u didnt deal with it --- are you up for the challenge ??
regards
Brian
Seems to me, in response to "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -Carl Sagan that Sam harris in attacking Francis Collins despite the fact that Collins having lead the Genome project is most qualified of all to show hes grasped the proof and his coclusion is the existence of GOD ___HoHum !!!!!
I'm going to summarize Brian's response in a way that will make him feel as silly as I do when I read this blurbs on faith:
Zeus ...Poseidon ...Apollo ... until you grasp the reality of the gods you will chase your tail and remain in a spin.
A technique is the use of a Placebo. When you give someone a placebo and they become better its because the many gods in the heavens have chosen to favor their recovery. Their faith in the placebo is a catalyst the gods use to help them without interfering in free will.
It is a matter of believing in the gods in the heavens. If you believe in them, they know, and they will help those who serve them.
"It's that simple"
Ok you have skirted around the subject - well actually u crashed right through it and missed the thing entirely.
Im gonna type this slowly cause Im assuming now that you cant read fast eaither - if i could put points under the sentences for you to rest ur finger as you read id do that too but then im sure the grease stains on the screen would obscure the text so i wont encourage you to continue fingerpoint reading ---
You use the word faith differently to the way I do --- Im using it in the sense that is taught by Christ - that if you have faith, and entertain no doubt but that what you expect will happen then it will happen. In this context - whatever the mechanism, its clear that people can have actualising thougghts whcih become reality - the placebo is the illustration. This points to the super natural - or something above science - given that science is the measure and observation of nature or things that occur at whatever level, in nature.
What im saying is that what you expect to happen, subject to your own expectation, will be the outcome. I dont mean faith in the cotext of its use in "faith based" organisations denoting relgious groups - nor do i mean it in being an adherent to one particular relgious sect or denomination.
Im talking about circumstances where science observes supernatural occurances which is catalysed by the medical intervention of a docotr or researcher using a placebo and the subject shows scientifically verifiable results.
Ultimately there are results which are unscientific or even superscientific because they are above science - these reults are Supernatural. I dont mean ghosts and haunted houses by that phrase.
And as yet you have not dealt with the issue - u can not explain the placebo effect. But dont feel alone Kido - neither can the most eminent doctors who witness it and record it and stimulate it.
For me jesus and others before him tocuhed on it. Jesus said that if you have faith that a thing will happen and believe absolutely that it will happen entertaining no doubt other then that it will happen then it will happen. He illustrated it by saying if you had faith the size of a mustard seed you could move a mountain - ie even the tiniest amount of faith ( mustard seeds are tiny and mountains are big ) can achieve waht would be viewed as wonderous things.
I mention this concept of faith because it defies ur assertion that there is just the here and now and this is it kinda thing. It PROVES that there are things, recorded, demonstrated, measured, quantified, winessed Supernatural occurances in the field of MODERN medicine which are beyond science and beyond sciences ability to explain.
People of various religions have spoken of these circumstances for thousands of years and quietly KNOW that such things are happening all the time. You dismiss them, and cite other eminent scientists to dismiss those who hold these beliefs but these beliefs are held not out of superstition but out of verfied factual observation whether 2000 yrs ago when JC went walk abouts and told people their faith had healed them or in todays scientific world a piece of sugar is used to triggetr a faith reaction and a cure in some subjects.
Now if having faith in a sugar lump can cure oneself, i wonder how much more effective would that be if the faith was placed in the source, God.
If, by putting ones faith in the healing power of a Doctor or Researcher, on reciept of a sugar lump can in many cases effect a medical cure, then how much more so when putting ones faith in God.
Sorry to labour the point here, and no doubt you will scream false dichotomy again, so ill be clear about this. I didnt mention God in the original posting. You did. You confused Faith with faithbased religions etc. Im merely stating that suprnatural ( above nature or beyond nature ) results are found when someone focuses their faith without doubt ( in this case they ether dont know OR are misled into beleiving they got the magic pill ).
Faith in this instance, seems to be, in effect, a self actualising belief... or in other words a process whereby when someone believes without a doubt whatsoever that a thing will happen then this actually comes to pass. This is the core of religion, and has been demonstrated in medicine. So go explain it. The question remains beyond this though, and i do accept this, has relgion modelled itself around the phenomonen of faith or is it, at is most core truthful values, setting aside the inevitible corruption which man, once in the equation, necessiceraily brings, the truth that we are beings capable of supernatural achievements, and in that case then are we, as relgion tells us, supernatural beings, spirit beings posed of a soul. If we are capable of supernatural feats, as catalysed by a placebo would seem to suggest, then by definiton we are supernatural beings.
If you accept mans ability with the placebo, then the door is open for other core values in religion, the quest is maybe to filter put the truth from the flotsom of human corrupting events which have distorted the truth over the thusands of years, especially as one politicised religion yielded or gave way to another trend in religion etc..,
There is no doubting the placebo effect, this destroys the absolutest certainty of your claims and dismissal of the core truths at teh theart of religion, and until you can using your scientific method and meausring tape confine placebo to the matter fo fact world of 1 plus 1 mathematics the certainty of your arguments, the dismissive arrogance of your assertions and your ridicule of those who have faith in a religion rings hollow and dull because modern science today is yet still not as advanced as the sugar cube or the shamens rattle or the blessing of a guy who was nailed to a tree 2000 years ago and to Christians raised himself from the dead.
p.s. if placebo is the power of the free will then just how powerful is Free will !!! Go ponder Kido :-)
Actually, in the spirit of Scientific method, which I totally accept ( i think fossils are bones of prehistoric animals etc ) I have a question, its a fundamental question - but not a fundamentalist question --- it is prompted by my recollection now of a tv mini series which first introduced me to the Science of Carl Sagen... i think it was at the end of the series... hes standing beside a tank of water and in it thers a soup - i kinda remember him having a mils lisp in his pronounciation of soup so it sounded more like "sthoup" anywyas i digress.... he pointed out that in the tank there was all the ingredients of a human being, all the aminio acids, the compunds, the chemicals, the lements.... but it lacked one thing ---It lacked LIFE
So heres another question ---What is Life -- not what is the meaning of life, or the answer to life, or prolife or long life or mid life or any other similar sounding thingy --- just simply what - scientifically is Life...
Hello everyone, I'd like to add my two cents.
When people speak of something so solid and admittingly "flawless" as the power of "God" to endow a sugar pill with enough power to cure a person's back pain or even help a great deal, in that same context, I ask myself, why can't it cure cancer, or a bad innard, something more hardware related, after all, god created the universe, storms and earthquakes, lashes out punishments and so much more phenomena that no simple human could do, but he can't go a hair further to help other people in need.
You might say, "the have to have enough faith for it to happen" or some lunacy of that sort, it's amusing becuase it makes faith sound as currency, oh boy, let me squeeze in two more prayers tonight, I might get lucky tomorrow.
It's put really simple in order to make my point quick.
Now, think of places where placebo takes effect, think of the roll the patient's psychological sense play, depression, per se, Everyone knows how much a mindset can dim a person's sun, admittingly, these conditions where placebo occur, with AND without the medications are subject to so many random possibilities of going either way, even pain, pain might come and go, yes, it happens, everyone knows that, try going for a placebo effect result on a condition that is settled and of relative complexity, not so "miraculous" anymore. Anyone who says "it could happen" should read up on results, or conduct tests themsleves and run into some dissapointment.
and Brian, just how solid is the base of your belief? if I'm not mistaken, (taking the liberty to assume) you belong to one of the many sects of christianism/catholicism, therefore, you are a monotheist yourself, yet you speak so openly of folks of other religions obtaining the results, people of the "wrong faith" if you will.
Further on, you called for a "higher power", not even jehova or allah anymore, all I feel from you is that you are trying to hope for this somehow, no matter how slim the chances are, to happen, when the truth at hand is that it's something strictly phychological.
For a closing example, try giving a simple sugar pill to a depression, if it's not a psychoactive placebo (from wikipedia: a drug that produces enough physical effects to balance the belief in the control and experimental groups that they have received the active drug) it will not give you any results.
Hence discarding the possible miraculous effect of a sugar pill and going more to grounds of decieving a patient to stimulate mental processes that can better a patients condition.
Hi Antonio, please find in anything I have written any statement from me where i say God has embewed the sugar with curative powers ? You wont find such a statement. If you read what I have said it is clear that I say the patient has embewed the sugar pill with what your calling miraculous powers. So go back read what Im actually saying and then you will see why im totally justified in dismissing what you have written above as this reply is not replying to anything ive written.
I merely say that when someone puts their faith in modern science and focuses it on a pill with reputed curative powers ( al be it through deception or the legitimate ignorance necessary for blind trials in medical research ) they - they - they have a supernatural medically definable quantifiable and certain result which as yet defies medical science. You have chosen an analogy with depression. Im not just talking about someone feeling better, sensing they are better or such ...im talking about physiological medical examples. People have been cured of cancer through placebo --- and a whole range of other illnesses ..... please read what I am writing
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p.s. Antonio, as Lman might tell you, I accept a lot in my life and in the lives of others. I am not absolute in terms of my understanding of God -- one becase for a start i dont understand it myself and even if I did i believe it is for us all, individually, to find our own path in life. That I believe in God is beyond personal doubt. Some of these things I accept include:
1) I am human, I think that there are a lot of people who carry no badge of affinity to any particular religion, who, through their lives, the way they live, the way to approach other people, they way they treat other people, who are infinitely more ( for example ) Christian then quite a lot of so called Christian followers who ignore the beggar in the street, the homeless person in the doorway on a cold wet winter night and think hard of paying taxes towards providing basic community support for those less well off then they are. I am not absolutist.
2) I don’t think any one specific religion has a monopoly on truth, and only God has a monopoly on God. I come from a traditionally large Irish family. I realised long ago that my parents love me no more and no less than my other siblings. My relationship with them is based on a dynamic which includes times when they observed my behaviour before i was adult enough top try obtain privacy...i understand this relationship is based not on the projection of myself i want my parents to see, but based on a relationship where they have seen me grow from being totally 100% dependent on them for everything to a state now where I am independent of them for material things but I still need support from them at a human / emotional level. I realise this also applies to my brothers and sisters and its a long long time since when i have cried about them being unfair, being horrible, being mean, about them not letting me stay out on a school night etc.., etc.., I know my parents don’t love me more than my other brothers or sisters, and there’s a certain analogy in that I think for all branches of Monotheistic religions. Relationships are individual and mutually respectful and require attention.
3) I use science, physics and other observation to question where we came from, what’s the purpose of life and other such questions. I apply scientific method to all rational circumstances. I do not see a diametric conflict between accepting the existence of God and science. Indeed, if anything, I sometimes have personal discoveries or understandings which challenge my belief or strengthen it. But as with my parents, my siblings and my familial relationships, so to do i appreciate that ones faith, religion or belief system is a matter of personal experience and not something anyone should try to or could succeed in changing. You cant make someone believe something. Belief comes from understanding. If the invitation is there that’s cool, but who wants anyone at a party who’s been forced to go and doesn’t want to be there ???
4) I think that what you do is one thing, why you do it is another thing entirely. I am highly annoyed and even offended by people who latch their unchristian political beliefs at the door of the local church and scream hell fire and brimstone, but ignore most of the principals of leading a good life and having good relationships with others. I think you would accept, and I think Lman would agree, that Europe is by far more secular than America. I think this is because there is a historical reality which reminds us all of the inherent evil of religio/political philosophies being given power. I also think it is important for Americans to fully recall who the founding fathers were and what caused the mass migrations to America from Europe in the early years and from around the world since. Freedom is more than just the responsibility that comes with being permitted to do what you want, it is also the right NOT to be told what to do by a ruling elite and the right to say to any ruler that you think he’s an asshole and actively work to remove him from office whether he likes it or not and be assured that holding a differing view to the prevailing wind of current political drifts wont land you with accusations of treason. In Europe we realised that such rulers were tyrants and oppressive. We had many wars over these issues including 2 World Wars. And we realised its better to cut them short. This means that Europe has a few extreme right parties, they get occasional electoral success but overall our freedom permits us to laugh at them, to ridicule them, to dismiss them and most importantly to be assured they will never rule over us. The political tactics engaged in - controlling the media, attacking free thought and expression of ideas, undermining the critics of the administration, buying off journalists, misinformation - these are, by European standards, old tricks that just don’t work as well here because we know the price. The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance. Thomas Jefferson !!!! Perhaps maybe after the current religio/political shitkicking hicks have lost power, America will take a deep breath and wonder how the fuck they allowed what’s happened to happen in the first place. Certainly it is worth remembering that the two term limit on executive election wasn’t put in place just because it looked good. It was put in place by emigrants who realised perhaps that occasionally regardless of what checks and balances you put in place, the protection of the system might fail, so in such circumstances, lets limit the time any such bad rulers could have in power. Such is the nature of politics...You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time... but you cant fool all of the people all of the time. I think the current administration is in that last stage where they just cant fool the people again... indeed George Bush said it himself ... but made a mess of it ... what he was trying to say was "fool me once shame on you.. Fool me twice shame on me"...if you fool me twice its my fault for allowing you the second chance. You cant fool all the people all the time ... Thomas Jefferson drafted the Declaration of Independence. Thats important. He died 180 years ago on July 4, 1826. He was the third President of the United States. Perhaps its time for Americans to remember the people who founded the country, remember what they stood for and why they framed the constitutional architecture the way they did. Maybe when they recall those founding fathers, religious men, who guaranteed religious freedoms, men who spoke about God and recognised that God had endowed man with INALIENABLE rights, including freedom of speech, freedom of conscience etc.., maybe then people will see the inherent danger in anyone who places his version of beliefs above those of others.
I believe in religious freedom, the freedom of all people to exercise free conscience and thought, the maximum personal growth of the person through freedom, im not a right winger indeed as ive told lman - if i was asked to believe in a God the nature of such that fits with the fundamentalist right wingers ive told lman id prolly opt to be athiest because their limited ignorant understanding of God is an affront to the mental capacity of humanity. But nothing lasts forever, especially political reign and I think the absolute power that the republicans have enjoyed and abused in the Houses of Congress has finally absolutely corrupted and that corruption is being exposed.
The question ( sorry for rambling a lil ) is this. Once this time has passed and the truth emerges will it be sufficient to prevent a repeat or will history be ignored with all its inevitable consequences ! If this is the station that politicis is at right now then it falls to men such as you and lman and your friends to secure the rights guaranteed and recognised…
Has America forgotten these words:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
brain,
knock yourself out
"Now if having faith in a sugar lump can cure oneself, i wonder how much more effective would that be if the faith was placed in the source, God."
God.
You said it, not me.
And for regards of you being down right dismissive with my comment and denying your own say, I'll pass on reading your last comment.
P.s: We have no powers.
P.s2: Arrogance kills.
I wouldn't be surprised if you try to pull yourself out of a quote of your own text.
No Antonio I wont try to pull myself out of a quiote from my own text ...ur not worth the effort
Becuase you can't prove that you did not refer to god after you were overly condescending to me, in all, I think you deserve to feel hopeless, for defending such a lunacy.
Btw, you don't indimidate anyone by being condescending, that stopped working in highschool.
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